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Edit DisputeEdit

This article is written using the name Hymac - the companies actual name and Trade marks have had various versions during it life, As with other companies. The changing of the article to any other version needs discussion with reasons as to why a major change should be implemented, as it would effect lots of other pages potentially and agreeing.

Note - The insertion of web site links or breaking internal links by changing the format is disruptive to the site and will be viewed as an act of vandalism & reverted. vandalism of the wiki can lead to the users being blocked from editing on all wikia sites not just this site.

- BulldozerD11 17:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC) (site admin)

HY-MAC. Hello Buldozer, Hope your well.

Regarding HYMAC, The only hymac company was the one born out of steelfab reg 1946. the other companies that manufactured machines useing the hymac brand name not a Reg LTD co hymac name. HYHOE ceased trading and did not go bust. HYMAC ltd then imported the kits, from there hymac designed its own machines. The vads are loged at oxford university, i have copies.{Design Awards] Brown eng made a hymac as well as other machinery, Whitlock did invent the BHL as we know it, construction news law report 3/2/2000. HYMAC/HY-MAC/hymac are registered TRADE MARKS AT IPO CARDIF. A new HY-MAC range of machinery is coming to the market, Please do not write or make comments with out having the full facts. info@hy-mac will forward any information you require.

Best Wishes

Tony.

Hi Tony I try and reply to the points raised now starting with a general note on naming convention on Tractor & Constriction Plant Wiki.

  • 1 - the General practice is to use the name that is in common usage as companies changed name & style of presentation of names over time & as is the practice on wikipedia the terms Ltd. PLC etc are generally not used. Part of the reason is that the in Article links are then simpler as in general people do not talk about XYZ plc or ABC corporation.
  • 2 - The Practice of using Capitalised names is an advertising industry practise that makes article look like press releases & following Wikipedia practice is not generally used in the body of article. It also has issues with the predictive text / internal search functions.
  • 3 - I have not found anything to prove or disprove the Steelfab connection in articles i've found yet. So I happy to leave it with a {{fact}} tag for now, as it's quite feasible.
  • 4 - The distinction between Brand and company is a problem with all companies & part of the reason the generic term is used. The Company traded under so many names like others that to title the article HYMAC Ltd would be misleading & to ave a seperate article for each incarnation is too fragmented.
  • 5 - The early machines were built by Rhymney Engineering Ltd & Marketed by Peter Hamilton Engineering Ltd from design council article (Peter Hamilton address was given as Rowsley in Derbyshire on a photo of the plate in a cab of an old machine.)
  • 6 - HY-Hoe was described as going bust in the report I read but as its not clear I will amend the statement, as I've not located the source.
  • 7 - VADS is an online collection of article relating to design awards when I looked at the site ages ago, created by a project run by the 'University of the Creative Arts'. The image of a machine here Has both the HY-MAC and HYMAC forms used on it.
  • 8 - the main article was a reprint of the Design council journal from 1967. Here which can be used as a reference for that section. The article was about the design of the early model 580 & 580B only.
  • 9 - Re whitlock and BHL - not found the 200 issue of CN yet, but if you have alink to an only version please add it to this page. A lot of people credit JCB with the design but Joeseph Bamford says he got the ides in scandinavia.
  • 10 - There is no claim that HY-MAC, HYMAC or hymac are not registered trade marks. The pages for other manufacturers all use the same naming convent of 'common name' in lower case text with the First letter capitalised of each word.
  • 11 - New HY-MAC - other than the mock up image posted here and on Your web site I have seen no articles describing a new machine so I am sceptical.
  • 12 - The addition of factual historical information to the site is fine. But attempts to remove information by any editor without giving a valid reason (of which the fact they may disagree with it is not acceptable).
  • 13 - Loads of other sites discussing / featuring excavators use the form 'Hymac' and 'hymac'

The creation of redirects for alternative version of article names is generally OK. & I can add them for HYMAC and HY-MAC if you like.

ProtectionEdit

Bulldozer, Anthony has stated in email that he would like to work productively on this article again. Would you please unprotect it so that he can do so?

I strongly encourage both of you to show the wiki virtue of patience with each other: be civil, and assume good faith -- that is, treat each other with the respect you would like to be treated, and assume that you are both trying to improve the article by providing solid, accurate information on a subject with a complex history. Any user who cannot continue discussing their disagreements productively may have their editing privileges removed.

The best way to come to an agreement is to provide external references for your assertions -- provide links to other websites, or detailed references to print publications so that others can check the reliability of your work.

Anthony, please recognize that this wiki has its own norms and styles based on its wide industry coverage, and not every change you wish to make is logical or reasonable within that structure. Also, this wiki should not be regarded as a way to drive traffic to your website -- excessive links will be removed.

Bulldozer, please show respect for Anthony's concerns for accuracy, and help him to add his knowledge to the wiki in a way that is beneficial to all.

The conversation above is a good start in exchanging opinions. I thank you for your efforts to work together, and I hope that you will not require further staff supervision in solving your differences. Best wishes! — Catherine@fandom (talk) 19:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi Catherine, Protection edit protection has been removed, as requested.
Tony, please add any references using the 'wiki code' <ref>Add link web here</ref> or <ref>Title of publication, author, ISBN no</ref> which then add it into the refs section (and automatically up date the index numbers). I've no problem with expanding the history, and would very much like to get the dates models were produced between added and production volumes updated, as it is often speculated as to actual numbers for some models amongst the many Fans of the brand. I would also be glad of the addition of any missing models to the listing, as i'm sure the listing is incomplete. - BulldozerD11 21:08, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

CommentEdit

Unfortunately as this is just one Manufacture / Brand, I can only spend a finite amount of time on tracking down info if I am to also add at least some basic info on all the other defunct and current manufacturers which are rarely featured on the web of Tractors and Construction plant and related machinery, to widen the coverage to all Manufacturers and Models, and record examples in preservation, as the sites aims. So items i have recently got photos for tend to get updated first and a backlog of photos for brands is developing. There are a great number of articles on individual models to write, but they need a reasonable amount of 'interesting' content, rather than mass creating "Stub" articles that repeat what is covered in the main article. As the main 'useful' info is a photo, production dates and Spec the pages need a Infobox creating for the Machine type, as has been done for tractors and steam engines. These two groups have a backlog of several thousand to add currently. Individual machines that are in now preservation can start with just a photo & snippets of info if they are uniquely identifiable, as others can build on the basic article as more info surfaces, and they appear in museums or at shows articles can be cross linked in a useful way.

- BulldozerD11 21:08, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Edit war / claims & counter claims re:Hymac history & brand name Edit

We appear to hava number of conflicting views as to Hymacs history and the associated versions of the name & trade mark. (Hymac being used here to refer to the brand and company(s) associated with building and marketing a number of excavators and other construction industry related machines from the 1960s to the 1980s similar) The term was often used by the press and general public along with JCB to describe any digger type machine, as hover is for vacuum cleaners.

The article page is NOT the place to discus them or make threats & so has been temporarily locked to editing as per Tractor Wiki & Wikia policy for such disputes. Some of these claims & counter claims have been discussed before (see above for some of the discussions/issues).

Since the past dispute there have been some useful additions of text and images, but some of the material does not tie up into an credible time line & the layout needs updating to This Wikis Std format for company/brand articles.

  • Reliable references in print are lacking to verify claims made in some cases by contributors.
  • Images should have a copyright tag added by the uploader & if not your own image (photo) they should have a backlink to the source site to attribute the original creator. (alot appear to have been just 'borrowed' from other web sites ! with nothing to indicate they are in the public domain or are licensed under creative commons or other license terms that allows re use)
  • Images without a relevant copyright tag may be deleted by admins or Wikia staff as per Wikia terms of use.
  • Images such as Publicity material & Brochures are generally acceptable for use under the 'fairuse' rational on Wikia sites, as it purpose is for education & discussion. Brochures for machinery in general were issued to trade press and the public for publicity purposes and the images reproduced by the press in articles without restriction.

CommentEdit

A lot of Company and Brand histories are hard to pin down as the two are not allways the same entity with many mergers & takeovers often described in the press by the 'common' name used by the public. Brands are often licensed to several companies for us in certian markets or on other products.

This article is never going to be the 'definitive history' of either the various Companies or the brand(s) which is also used by other companies on their products in industries unrelated to construction machinery.

Note:within the next few days after going through the page history I will move some of the discussion / comment type material which is currently on the article page to here rather than just deleting it as non encyclopedic, as it is relevant to past & future discussion.

Some of the material within the article on associated/former parent companies may be better in the separate articles for the individual companies with a short summary of the connection to Hymac left in this article. i.e Powell Duffryn, Rymmey Engineering, IBH Group, NEI Group, Brown Group, Hanomag etc.

Article IssuesEdit

Some of the issues that are currently evident with the page.

  • How & when the Hymac brand started
  • Original company name
  • Timeline of company ownership changes
  • Timeline of brand/trademark & various formats used

^ List of models built and when

  • Numbers actually built
  • The infobox is wrong
  • Claims and counter claims abut a 'New Hymac' machine launch -
  • Other companies exist with similar names/brand around the world

FactsEdit

Before the recent edits it had been stated that;

  • The service and spares department of the old 'company' was sold off & still operates as a supplier for Parts & servicing of older "Hymac" machines under the name of "Hymac Parts & Service Ltd" operated by Mr R. Gould.
  • The "HYMAC" trade mark was re/registered at the IPO by Mr A. O'Gorman and he also currently owns the domain name www.Hymac.com and Hy-mac.com

I have not seen any substantial evidence to disprove either of the above statements.

-   BulldozerD11   talk    contribs   17:48, January 13, 2012 (UTC) (Tractor Wiki Site Admin)

Discussion / commentsEdit

Place you comments below - Note:do not alter or remove comments by other posters

Please quote the statement from above (placed within quotes) and then your response after it. subsequent replies should be indented one line below (place one colon : before the reply for each indent level)
Agree
User:Hymac580d has added to the above statements which were posted for discusion. (Original Edit moved here by Admin so as to leave the statements as originally posted for others to comment on 'as posted' version. Hymac580d's version incorporating their addition/comment marked in Italics is copied here);
  • The service and spares department of the old 'company' was sold off & still operates as a supplier for Parts & servicing of older "Hymac" machines under the name of "Hymac Parts & Service Ltd" operated by Mr R. Gould.

That would seem right, and is Mr Goulds Bussiness, Sold would indecate a Business/sale transaction between the old HYMAC company and Mr Gould.

BulldozerD11 - yes I'd expect some sort of transaction would be involved - ?
  • and Hymac580d agreed with the second statement, about the Hymac trademark by adding "Thats Correct"
BulldozerD11 - a link to the entry at the IPO site would be a good ref to add
Disagree
Other points

Add any other points below here.

User:BulldozerD11 comments -
  • Some of the other disputed statements appeared to be mixing up Rhymney Engineering/iron/Coal Companies earlier history with the manufacturing of the Hymac machines which would initial appear to have been on a contract basis to be marketed by Peter Hamilton Equipment. (as many types of machine are still built today by well known companies and badged with various other brands in some markets to get 'a full line') The Hymac badge appearing on FAI built machines in the later days. Rhymney changed name several times.
  • Several companies operated as subsidiaries / divisions using the 'brand name "Hymac"' but how many were 'register' at companies house and were Ltd or Plc's ? (but the name has bee used by several unconnected companies as part of there name as well.
  • During restructuring and liquidation/administration of companies (in general terms) various assets get sold off which often results in several parties having rights or a claim on a 'trade (ing) name' involved in the ongoing business. e.g Ford sold the New Holland business along with the tractor manufacturing & stock to Fiat of Italy with the restriction that the Ford brand name could only be used for a set period afterward then the machines were rebranded. In reverse Volvo cars were owned by Ford for a time but Ford only had limited use of the Volvo name for the ongoing car operations. Tata obtained a host of former British Leyland 'brands' when they then acquired Jaguar Land Rover. But the Chinese did not get the Rover name when they bought the remains of Rover & MG. Apple Inc and the Beatles record company have been arguing over the 'Apple Logo' for years... and so on. -
  • Is the hymac page sorted now.
add your reply/comments here

End of discussion/comments section


All parties who have contributed to the article in the last 18 month since the Rhymney section was initially updated have been invited to comment. -   BulldozerD11   talk    contribs   02:29, January 19, 2012 (UTC)



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